Podcast: Leading kindly in a military organization – my career at NATO

[00:00:00] Virginie Viscardy: Why would you not be an empathetic and kind leader, particularly in the military domains where operations and missions require the full commitment of your team to ensure everyone’s safety? And if you’ve not created meaningful connections with your troops or your team, you could put yourself and your other in danger in times of crisis.

[00:00:38] Julia Hägele: Welcome to the HerCareer podcast, where people who are com mitted to a diverse and fair working world have their say live from our Expo and from our community. Virginie Viscardy grew up in Brussels, next to the NATO building. Her father worked for the Belgian delegation as a gendarm, performing both military and police tasks. At the age of 23, Virginie joined NATO herself. Today, she’s based in the US as the head of strategic engagements and communications at the NATO Communications and Information Agency. I’m Julia, editor-in-chief of HerCareer. In our podcast, Virginie told me how her work for NATO has changed over two decades, why it is possible to lead kindly in a military organisation, and we talked about the question if a pacifist can apply at NATO.

[00:01:42] Julia Hägele: So, Virginie, welcome.

[00:01:48] Virginie Viscardy: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:49] Julia Hägele: So while NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, rings a bell for almost everyone, being the political and military association of its member states, your agency, the NATO Communications and Information Agency, probably doesn’t. What is your agency’s task?

[00:02:05] Virginie Viscardy: Well, thank you for that question. So the NATO Communication and Information Agency, or NCA, that’s our acronym, it’s what we call NATO’s Technology and Cyber hub. What we do is we’re a team of over 3000 people spread across 30 locations across the North Atlantic. And we all work together to connect all corners of NATO so we can maintain its technological edge. So we work very closely also with the industry because they help us bring innovative technical solutions, that we need in order to bring the right capabilities and project and products in the alliance as we are transforming digitally. So that’s what we do.

[00:02:49] Julia Hägele: So could you give us an example of why this work is important?

[00:02:54] Virginie Viscardy: When you read a lot of things about NATO, you might have heard that we say that NATO’s mission is to preserve peace and security for over 1 billion citizens. So that sounds really impressive, right. And this is really what drives my agency. So we play a pivotal role to ensure that NATO can operate effectively and securely in this very interconnected world. So practically, what does that mean? Well, we connect NATO in very simple words. We ensure that our communication systems and the systems of all the allies can work together. So that means that nations can, during exercises or if they have to make political decisions or, you know, decide on the future of the alliance, have always a means to talk to one another. One more thing about the agency and what we do is, of course, everyone has heard about cyber attacks and how it can be devastating on nations, on population and infrastructure. Well, the agency for NATO is on the front line protecting the Alliance against cyber attacks 24/7 and, making sure that the alliance remains resilient. So this is very important for us, but we also do space capabilities. We also bring new technologies. We also study emerging and disruptive technologies like 5G artificial intelligence. So really this is what as a tech arm of NATO, we provide and why it is so important in today’s world.

[00:04:28] Julia Hägele: Do you have a concrete example?

[00:04:30] Virginie Viscardy: So what happened when we started the mission of NATO in Afghanistan, I think over 40 nations were involved. Right. And the commander of the mission was, of course, an American general. And we had not thought about how to connect these people together with all the participants in this massive effort. So this general had 6 or 7 phones on his desk because every nation had a different network. So to contact one, you had to take that phone and then that computer with the other nation. So that became very quickly something that my agency fixed by creating a network that was the same for everyone. So I think that was one of the biggest CIS communication and information achievement that we did, at the very beginning of the mission in Afghanistan.

[00:05:17] Julia Hägele: You have been working for NATO for 21 years so far. How did your work change over those two decades?

[00:05:24] Virginie Viscardy: It changed dramatically, and I’m glad because, it feels that I’ve finished continuing a journey that I’m very proud of. So I was able to join NATO just after college. So I was starting my master’s degree, and I was learning on the job. So the first two years of me working in NATO was very studious, learning a lot of things all at once. And then after about four years, I became a liaison officer. So what I did is I represented the agency to a committee that would give us the funding for the project that the agency was doing. So I was really excited because as a political scientist, I got to work with, you know, multiple nations, 20 plus nations every day. So it was very, very challenging, particularly as we were in Afghanistan. Decisions had to be made quick. Funding of projects had to be happening fast. So that was really a great first major achievement in my career. And then I moved to the United States in 2009, and there I worked with a military command. And suddenly I go from working with civilians or financial people, lawyers, and now it’s sir, ma’am, very different way of working. And so that was another a new adventure in my career. And that taught me a lot. And then maybe one thing in my career that changed me the most would be the time I spent in Afghanistan, the summer of 2016. I volunteered to go because I really believe that, anyone who works in a civilian position in NATO should understand the challenges that people face when they’re in operations or missions. So I worked for about two months in what they called the Security Assistance Force Centre that was basically managing the people who were training, monitoring and assisting the new Afghan government and military entities. So that really taught me the value of what my agency was providing and how important it was to do it well, to do it on time and to be responsive to to those requirements. So very interesting. Evolution in my career brought me to places I didn’t think I would be going, but incredibly fulfilling time so far.

[00:07:40] Julia Hägele: So if you compare the 23 year old Virginie starting to work at NATO with the Virginie today, what are your biggest learnings when it comes to building a career?

[00:07:50] Virginie Viscardy: You know, I was wondering, the other day if I could say that I’ve achieved my dream. Well, actually, I think I did, because I’ve wanted, since I was a very little girl, I wanted to work for NATO, and I wanted to do something useful for NATO. So, I think that back then, positions were difficult to get. People said, you know, NATO is too difficult to access. Very many people apply. Not many get the job. Well, I’m glad that I persevered. I got the right education and I worked my way up where I am now. Again, not easy every day, but there are a few learnings. I’ve learned that working hard always pays off. I’ve also learned that what people think of me is really their problem, and that actively seeking opportunities, that taking risks here and there is really how you progress in life. So I volunteered to take additional duties. I mentioned my time in Afghanistan. So I try to challenge myself and really to say more, yes, getting a job at NATO might be daunting or something that people think is only for former military people, but that’s a misconception. Half of the people in NATO are civilians, just like you and me. So we are continuously looking for new talent across many areas from human resources, finance, communication, engineering. So anything you can imagine. So we are looking for all kinds of profiles, not just the former military. So I would like to encourage everyone, especially women listening to this podcast to explore those vacancies. Take a look at it, because there are many opportunities and maybe the next one would be yours.

[00:09:33] Julia Hägele: So you were saying, you wanted to work for NATO since you were a child? Can you tell us how everything started?

[00:09:40] Virginie Viscardy: It started with my father. My father worked for NATO as a gendarm. So it’s the state police. When they were doing security in NATO, and from a very young age, my father would take me to the headquarters and show me the delegations and tell me the story of why NATO was created and how important it was. I’ve learned to swim at the NATO staff centre. I went to all the Christmas parties, so it felt like I grew up within NATO. So no surprise that I ended up studying political science, international relations, and that I looked at a position there primarily. So, I think my father would be proud today if he knew what I was doing and where I am in NATO.

[00:10:23] Julia Hägele: When did your father pass?

[00:10:24] Virginie Viscardy: 2016.

[00:10:26] Julia Hägele: So he saw the beginnings of your career. He saw you moving to the US, and then unfortunately, he passed.

[00:10:32] Virginie Viscardy: He passed, a little bit after I came back from Afghanistan. And unfortunately, he was dealing with Parkinson’s and dementia. So he already were dealing with not being able to comprehend what was happening around him. But I remember that he cried when I moved to the United States because he knew that part of my dream was to live in America and continue my work with NATO. And so, he’s always somewhere there every time I’m in the headquarters, because I knew how much this meant to him, and he would have loved to be doing more for NATO than security. So I’m doing this for him partially, too.

[00:11:09] Julia Hägele: You once said in an interview, I have learned that when you can do the little things, you can do the big things. Can you elaborate on that?

[00:11:16] Virginie Viscardy: Yes. So I mentioned that I started working for NATO when I was 23 years old with no real experience. I began with a very entry level job in basic tasks administrative work, making coffees, distributing mail, copying contracts. So I took every task on with enthusiasm because I wanted to learn and grow, and I wanted to support everyone as best as I could. And today what I see is I work with many peers that did not have to learn those foundational tasks and may not fully appreciate the challenges the support staff faces every day. And because I’ve been there, I understand their frustrations and their challenges, and I’ll always take this into account when I need help. And I believe that doing the little things has taught me the value of every contribution and has prepared me for the bigger task, because that’s that I took on later on. So it’s a perspective that it shaped my career and my approach to leadership as well. And I believe that you earned the respect of your colleagues by not forgetting that everyone’s job is important.

[00:12:25] Julia Hägele: You’re also well known for supporting women, for calling yourself a feminist, and for leading respectfully. At the risk of talking in stereotypes here, NATO seems like the opposite of all of that, a quite masculine workplace with other interests than gender equality and a military hierarchical structure. How do you fit in there?

[00:12:44] Virginie Viscardy: I fit in just fine. Well, at least I feel that I do now, because NATO is traditionally been seen as a very masculine organisation. I mentioned that earlier. So but significant strides have been made towards gender equality and becoming a more inclusive environment. And I’ve really witnessed this positive change in my 20 years in NATO. I won’t lie, some years ago I would often be the only woman in the room, the youngest, and sometimes I had the impression that my voice was not heard. As a woman, I felt like I needed to try harder than my male colleagues to get the positions that they had. So and this is not exclusive to NATO, but unfortunately it still happens everywhere. It’s really good to see that things are changing, including at NATO, because we now have policies and action plans and initiatives in place to progressively change the landscape of the organisation towards something that’s more balanced, an environment that’s more inclusive for everyone. Are we there yet? No, we only have about 20% of women in my agency. But I know now that their efforts being put in place that can help change that over time.

[00:13:58] Julia Hägele: When we talk about the modern working world, we talk a lot about those topics gender equality, diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility. So how is NATO doing concerning those topics apart from having 20% women?

[00:14:13] Virginie Viscardy: Well, it’s taking the steps. And as I mentioned, this is something that is really progressive. I wish we could go faster. But knowing that they’re recruiting now officers that do diversity, inclusion and equity in NATO, that’s something that did not happen, years ago. So, and if I remember well, the secretary general said about diversity and inclusion that it’s the heart of who we are at NATO and what we do. And so we have to draw on all the resources and all the experiences of this diverse crowd to make us stronger and better equipped to face the future. And I absolutely believe that this is encompassing the new spirit in NATO. As we look at the action plan that was put in place in 2019, that has a roadmap to incorporate research and best practice to help, get a more performing and diverse workforce. So things are happening. And, NATO also has, by the way, a policy on women, peace and security so that we can also integrate gender perspective in all aspects of NATO, including operations. And I have seen in Afghanistan that this matters a lot. And the gender advisor has very influential in commands in operations and missions. So beyond women, also, NATO has developed some initiatives to support the LGBTQ+ community with staff resource groups called PROUD@NATO. And more will be done in the future. So my agency, too, specifically, we finally have an amazing officer for diversity, equity and inclusion. Jonathan has been incredible in the last three years in really bringing forward the diversity perspective in all aspect of what the agency does. So again, there’s reason to be optimistic and excited.

[00:16:11] Julia Hägele: So what do you think stands in the way of women the most? Maybe from observing but maybe also from your own experience.

[00:16:21] Virginie Viscardy: Well, one of the main obstacles that I live through, and I believe most women have experienced in many organisations, it’s the persistence of stereotypes and unconscious biases that sometimes can limit opportunities for advancement. Another challenge can be also balancing work and family responsibilities. Which, let’s be honest, is often focussed on women. So there’s need for greater support to ensure that women can pursue their careers without sacrificing their personal lives. And I think NATO there has realised that because we have a great maternity leave policy, we create ways to to be able to continue performing well, becoming a parent or being a parent. Also, I think that women don’t always have access to the same networks and opportunities that the men that we work with have. So that’s why I think mentorship, relationship and having role models is very important. And then one more thing I would say is, is that we we do need to do more: We need to to promote careers available at NATO to many profiles and maybe adjusting the narrative in our job descriptions. But also women tend to discard positions because they don’t meet most or all the criteria for the position. So I also want to say, we need to do better, but women also have to give themselves a chance and take the risk and and consider what they can bring to NATO. So, going over that fear that something is potentially not open to them.

[00:17:59] Julia Hägele: So there is awareness about the issue of women. How did your own feminist awareness grow over the years?

[00:18:07] Virginie Viscardy: I think I’ve always been a feminist. I never thought as a young girl that there were sports or activities that were not open to me. I mean, I play golf and I box, and these two sports are usually associated with men, right? So I think my personal experience and professional challenge that I mentioned before, and the influence of other inspiring individuals have really shaped the feminist that I am today. I think I’ve worked hard on myself as well and at the office to overcome biases, disparities, or the barriers that, were, was facing so that today I can help remove them completely for the young women that will follow me. So this is really what led me to be where I am now, my calling if you want to. So the road is long, but there’s recognition that something has to be done. So again, this is the priorities that we need to bring forward. And I think that the women in our organisation should all consider what they can do to help pave the way for those who follow them.

[00:19:14] Julia Hägele: What’s your opinion on quota?

[00:19:17] Virginie Viscardy: I have never liked quotas because there’s, I believe, no woman who wants to be selected because we need a number, or because there needs to be a woman in this division. The worst thing I think we can do for women is to choose a woman and put a woman in a senior position because it’s needed, but who will fail because she’s not received the training, the mentoring, the support that would lead her to be successful. So I think also all women wants to be selected based on merit and not on their gender. But the reality today is the workplace is still very much male-dominated. The brotherhood of men, call in senior position, is still very real. And there’s nothing like that for women out there that I know of. So until we have a critical mass of women and minorities in power, in positions of power, in leadership, I believe that quotas may actually be an effective tool to promote gender equality, to address those systematic barriers. But this would have to be done jointly with the right tools and the right expertise, so that these women, talented women can actually succeed at the top.

[00:20:36] Julia Hägele: Yeah, the critical mass. Yeah, I’ve heard about that. So, I’m sure you are a role model for many women. Is there any particular role model that you have been inspired by over the years?

[00:20:50] Virginie Viscardy: Many. I would say that generally I was very inspired by leaders such as Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who was a Supreme Court judge, or Madeleine Albright, the first female secretary of state. I’ve been inspired by people like my piano teacher, who was a great influence as I was growing up. But more recently, one person that has been inspiring me tremendously is my golf teacher. My golf teacher is 76 years old, and she’s American, and she decided in her late 30s that she was going to completely change her career because she wanted to teach golf. So she took that incredible change. Plus she decided to also come out as lesbian, all at a time in the 90s where for women it was incredibly hard to be open about all of this. And still today, at 76 years old, she’s inspiring hundreds of young women with their golf games, but also the confidence and self-respect. She’s just not ready to retire. And she’s an incredible influence in my life every day. I basically want to be her when I grow up.

[00:21:56] Julia Hägele: I guess that’s the challenge. Finding your own way of of living somehow.

[00:22:01] Virginie Viscardy: But doing it, taking the risk of doing it. And that, to me, is incredibly inspiring.

[00:22:07] Julia Hägele: Which leadership style did you develop over the years?

[00:22:13] Virginie Viscardy: Well, I think I’m very much a people person, and so my style of leadership was always going to be focussed on the wellbeing and the success of my team. I think I’m a very empathetic person. At least that’s what is said about me. And I care really that everyone that I’m responsible for feels integrated, heard and challenged in a positive way. I also believe, in doing so, by using kindness and by welcoming vulnerability when needed, sometimes men’s style of leadership, it’s about showing strength, resolve, a little self-confidence, assertiveness. Well, it may work for some, but I don’t think that’s the only way to lead. We’ve recently been offered at the agency a leadership training called „Catalytic Leadership“ to address the challenges that we were dealing with in the office. And one thing that I really liked about that training was this concept of putting yourself as a leader on the edge of the circle that is your team, rather than being at the centre because it allows you to see everyone, hear everyone, take everyone’s viewpoints while still remaining in the driver’s seat. Right? So kind, respectful leadership, allowing vulnerability. That’s what suits me, I think, at this point of my career.

[00:23:33] Julia Hägele: But kind and empathetic leadership in a military organisation, what do you tell those who don’t believe you?

[00:23:40] Virginie Viscardy: Try it if you dare. I really believe that empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, right? So it’s about taking time to see their points, their feelings, and the needs of those around you before you make any decisions. So, why would you not be an empathetic and kind leader, particularly in the military domains where operations and missions require the full commitment of your team to ensure everyone’s safety? And if you’ve not created meaningful connections with your troops or your team, you could put yourself and your other in danger in times of crisis. So to me, having empathy is important, but it’s not the only key to success, right? So it’s great to say you have empathy, but you also have to put your money where your mouth is and take the necessary actions to meet those needs and those feelings that you’ve captured. So I can give you an example. For example, during Covid, everyone started working from home, and after we all came back to the office, we have realised that it actually worked well and that productivity was not going down because people were working from home. And we also saw that it improved the staff morale and flexibility in how people work. So I’ve always supported this now that Covid is behind us, hopefully. And because I trust my team implicitly, and I know that it will bring more benefit to the group than forcing everyone to be at the office every day. And being empathetic is to really consider the needs and what works and what makes your team feel good. So and this has definitely made our team stronger and more connected and happier really.

[00:25:27] Julia Hägele: Could you imagine a pacifist working at NATO?

[00:25:30] Virginie Viscardy: Well, if you’re referring to the core definition of a pacifist, one might say that no, because, pacifists in the literal sense of the term would not work for NATO because we’re using political but also military efforts to resolve disputes. But I think to me that pacifist advocate for peace, right? Well, that’s what NATO advocates for, too, conflict prevention, democratic values, peace, freedom and stability. So yes, you can be a pacifist and work for NATO.

[00:26:01] Julia Hägele: Would you call yourself one?

[00:26:03] Virginie Viscardy: Yes, actually I would, to the extent that I have dedicated my career to be part of an organisation that has guaranteed freedom and safety for the Euro-Atlantic area for 75 years, I really do believe in the values and the missions of the Alliance. And 21 years into the job, I continue to believe that this organisation really is essential, to guarantee peace and security.

[00:26:29] Julia Hägele: So if a woman wanted to work for NATO where does she start? What options would she have?

[00:26:34] Virginie Viscardy: NATO is committed to derive its strength from talented and diverse people. So a really diverse workforce. So now the alliance has put in place strategies to attract, to develop and retain a mix of people with different skills, backgrounds, experience and cultures. So access to the broadest possible range of talent is essential to generate the innovative ideas and capabilities that we need in NATO. And a woman will have as many options as men, and I really want to stress that. So the only restriction that they would have, is that you have to come from one of the 32 member nations. That is the only restriction they will face. So any woman interested in contributing to the alliance, regardless of her educational background skills, should consider applying to one of our position. Again, looking into our NATO website. So people often think that NATO is only for military planners and engineers. And I want to stress again, that is not the case. We are looking for all kinds of profiles, and we really need the interest of young talent in women to turn to NATO and see if they could also contribute to the alliance mission and vision.

[00:27:51] Julia Hägele: So with your experience of powering through this male-dominated work environment for more than 20 years, what is the best career or maybe life advice you got, and which one would you like to pass on to other women, no matter if they work at NATO or elsewhere?

[00:28:08] Virginie Viscardy: I think that plenty of things come to mind, but I think I will pick three that I strongly believe in. I think that first, no matter what the job is, always be prepared and work hard. Second, I think one should look at who leads the team that you are applying to more than the job itself. I think that being part of a group that is led by someone who values you, your ideas, your enthusiasm is more important to me than the functions that I would have had in that team. And then lastly, and it may seem very empathetic and kind, but yes, be kind. Kind to yourself and to others always.

[00:28:50] Julia Hägele: Virginie, thanks so much for sharing your story and being here.

[00:28:53] Virginie Viscardy: You are very welcome and thank you for inviting me. This was a great chat.